It’s probably time to come out of the closet and tell you
that I’m no longer drinking the Fuhrman carrot juice. I think a lot of his advice is good, and I
will eat more healthy than ever before thanks to that. But I have found that his diet doesn’t work
for me. I have suffered from malaise
and low-energy levels for the past 3 years.
I thought, how can I be so tired if I’m eating the greatest diet on
earth?
Before I discovered Dr. Fuhrman. I ate a healthy low-fat
vegan diet essentially the same as Dr. McDougall’s plan; and in fact, that is when I lost
all of my excess weight. On the Fuhrman
plan, I lost a bit more, then maintained, then gained as the malaise set
in. I think this corresponded to the
time when my metabolism dropped. Dr.
Fuhrman says this is a good thing and leads to longevity. This led me to be cold and tired all the
time. I was wearing a wetsuit in the
pool! I gradually gained 10 lbs, probably due in part to the lower metabolism. At least I didn’t have to wear the wetsuit
anymore after that.
Interestingly, while on my previous diet, my cholesterol was
131. Three years later on the Furhmam
diet, my cholesterol was 151. Is this
just statistical noise? Or was it the
nuts? Some nuts are high in saturated
fat, which is correlated with cholesterol levels. I think the nuts combined with the large
amounts of fruits I was eating is another reason I started gaining weight. I was eating a high-fat, high-sweet diet and
my metabolism was low.
In the past couple of years, I got more strict with the
diet, limiting my nuts and seeds to 1 oz a day, and consuming almost no grains
and starches. I was eating a lot of vegetables and fruit,
and my grocery bills were quite high. I ate much of my food raw, except for soups
cooked on weekends, mainly due to food prep issues (I didn’t feel like cooking
late at night when I did most of my food prep for the next day). This halted my weight gain, but
it was quite an effort, and I was still tired all the time! Maybe my body was putting too much energy
into digesting all that raw food. I
started wondering if I need animal products in my diet.
About 6 months ago, my friend Holly and I were wondering
together if there is something wrong with our diets, and we began this journey
of exploration together. She suggested
the low metabolism was our problem and we explored diets that boost your
metabolism—not trying them out, just reading about them. More recently we considered the possibility
that a high-fat diet is probably not the ideal way to lose weight. Since I wish to remain vegan, the obvious
option for me to explore was adding starches back in to replace the calories
from nuts and seeds and fruit.
In the last 2 months, I have been including more starches
and intact grains (not flour products yet) in my diet, first tentatively and
then more aggressively, and my energy levels have skyrocketed. I feel like I used to. I’m shattering my records in swimming, biking,
and running. I’m happy again. I have been astounded by this. And Holly is experiencing the same
thing! After more research, she came up
with the answer: the serotonin boost
from starches. This enhances your mood
and raises your metabolism. Wow, it sure
does! Interestingly, we are both
experiencing some insomnia from these high energy levels--sleeping soundly but
waking up much earlier than usual. I
suspect these effects will subside but I’m hopeful that my “set-point” energy
levels will remain higher than previously.
Other beneficial features about including the starches and
grains is that my food prep time is much lower, the quantities of food I need
to eat are smaller, the time it takes to eat is shorter, I feel more satisfied
and energetic eating these foods, and the recipes are fun. I’m looking forward to trying my old
favorites again: mashed potatoes, red
beans and rice, tofu jambalaya to name a few.
I’ll post more about my new menus soon.
I logged my grocery bills several months ago and I’m doing it again now--I’ll
report on the results when they are in.
I used to think Drs. Fuhrman and McDougall agreed on most
things, only differing in minimum amounts of nuts and seeds required, and
typical amounts of grains and starches. Now I think there is a fundamental
difference, and I think they would agree, from what I’ve seen of their posts on
their forums. Dr. Fuhrman says “the
salad is the main dish”. Dr. McDougall says
starches are the main dish. This is actually
a big difference. On Fuhrman’s diet,
you plan entrees centered on salad and greens and veggies; nuts and fruit
provide a large portion of the calories.
On McDougall, even if you a lot of salads and vegetables, they are side dishes
as far as calories go; the main source of calories is from grains and starches. The result is that Fuhrman’s plan is usually a
high-fat, high-fruit diet and McDougall’s is low-fat and less-fruit. I think it’s easier to lose weight and
maintain on a low-fat, low-sweet diet. A
light bulb went off in my head when I was discussing restaurant options with Holly
a few weeks ago. Out of habit, she
suggested having one of the entrees over greens instead of brown rice. I noted that if we had them over brown rice,
the total fat content would go down, the total calorie content would go up, we
would be satiated for longer, so would be able to eat less later on, and eat
lower fat overall.
I have been watching all of Jeff Novick’s DVDs. I find them very informative, sensible and
convincing. I think following his
approach is the easiest way to lose weight,
maintain weight, enjoy familiar (though modified from the Standard
American Diet) comfort foods, and live a healthy life. It is basically a low-fat, whole foods, mostly
vegan diet. This is the diet
recommended by Drs. McDougall, Esselstyn, Barnard, Ornish, and Campbell. I will discuss the controversial nuts and
seeds issue in another post.
Here is a funny aside about our new discovery: I attend a weekly meditation class. When we
start the class we reflect on our motivation for doing this, which is to be
happy. Then we wish to extend our own desire for happiness to all others.
As I was reflecting on these things, I thought how in the last 3 years
I have read or listened to over 10 books on happiness, motivation, and meditation
to try to help me recover from my malaise. And what finally worked for
me? Potatoes?! What would my teacher, Mingyur Rinpoche, think
of that?!
I hope my Fuhrman friends will still be friends with
me. I have just found a need to try
something else. I would love to hear
your comments and critiques. I am definitely
open to challenge on this. I do not
claim to know the answers; I’m just trying finding out what works for me.

31 comments:
This was such an interesting post! I started out as a McDougaller last year (with immense, lasting success), but after hearing Fuhrman speak at McDougall's Advanced Study weekend last February, I was worried that Fuhrman's teachings were more "advanced," or more nutritionally superior. I've been back and forth since then. Now that I've learned all these new Fuhrman teachings (no snacking, no need for grains, potatoes=not so good), I've been worried when I eat/do those things. But I am now realizing that there was nothing wrong with the McDougall approach to begin with. I went from 145 to 105 pounds effortlessly in like 5 months, eating multiple potatoes a day, lots of rice and beans, etc (and maintained that with the same diet for months). If anything, strictly following McDougall's plan made me lose a little too much weight; it was just melting off.
Anyway, it was very interesting to hear your firsthand account as someone who has done both approaches and managed to keep so in tune/aware of her body, energy levels, etc. So thanks for being so meticulous and reporting your personal findings to all of us!
Barb, I have always admired your very systematic and disciplined approach, and I have absolute confidence in your conclusions. I do think that people have individual differences. I find I need a small serving of animal product at least several times a week to keep balanced, and I do get frustrated that there's not much of anything to eat but fruit and nuts when I'm feeling truly hungry and am full-up on salad. I think the beans are really important for me, and I really like the nuts. But in the last month or so I've been really enjoying oatmeal just about every morning, and it keeps me really full a long time, while a smoothie of fruit and kale and a little flax seed meal felt like too much sugar for the calorie count I had.
I look forward to your future discoveries, and I'm learning from you!
Oh, I should add that carbs can really be a trigger of compulsive overeating for me, so I do have to be careful about amounts of starches, but at a half cup or cup or one tortilla or slice of whole-grain bread, in context of a lot of veggies, I do fine.
I look forward, too, to your upcoming post on nuts and seeds.
Barb, I think this is an ever-changing journey for everyone.
Personally, I had a tough time on McDougall, I couldn't ever get my cravings to subside. I skew towards Fuhrman because I've had 2 types of cancer (kill it with nutrients!) and his diet is more anti-inflammatory which keeps the lupus flares under control.
I think you, and many of the people who follow you, are so far ahead of the curve diet-wise. Both diets are exceptional, and superior to the diets of 98% of most Americans. And each of us is different, so we all need to "tweak" something to suit our own needs.
I try to focus on the similarities between McDougall/Fuhrman/TrueNorth/etc. It seems counterproductive to debate constantly. I still love ya, and I'm proud of your candor.
-Kit (lancaster)
thanks for your comments!
Anonymous, I too thought Fuhrman's diet was more "advanced". But as a scientist myself, I should have known better than to trust a diet based on one person's interpretation of the scientific literature. I don't necessarily fault his interpretations, just the faith that science has the answers--it is in fact very incomplete, and it is difficult to account for all the factors that could lead to erroneous conclusions. I discounted McDougall basing his diet on history of healthy populations but I'm seeing more the wisdom of that now.
Hi Cindy, don't make the same mistake as me (having absolute confidence in my conclusions). :) question, question, question. yes, the sugar content bothered me after a while. It was fun at first.
-barb
weird, I saw a comment by Kit in email but it doesn't show up here. maybe that was her choice. Anyway, I wanted to point out that I don't want to debate who's better either. I'm just sharing my journey. I will get back to my usual food logs and recipes after a few more posts about this. I wanted to be open and not mislead Fuhrman followers with my new food logs and recipes.
oh, there it is. Hi Kit. I too think Fuhrman's diet is more anti-inflammatory. In fact, I am hoping my allergies don't return! If they do, I'll have to tweak again. I will still eat lots of vegetables and greens, and I prefer my grains intact--that is, not ground into flours. So I am trying to keep my starches and grains pretty pure and as close to their natural state as possible. I think I'm a little gluten insensitive so am avoiding a lot of grains.
keep up the good work killing cancer with nutrients!
Barb, I look forward to what the next chapter brings. Shattering ride and run times and all the rest! My story is still being written too (as you know :)) but I look forward to continuing the journey with what I believe will be continuing energy and a lot more joy. And hopefully a lighter weight to carry, literally. Anonymous #1, your success is inspiring to me - I want to lose another 30 lbs and have been stalled for almost two years, and increasingly frustrated. I've now lost over 3lbs. in two weeks and I am eating more calories and feeling more positive in general.
Thank you Barb!
Welcome to the McDougall camp! I agree that a starch based diet is much easier to follow, even though I eagerly read everything Fuhrman writes. My interpretation of Fuhrman's approach was that starch was scaled based on one's activity. So I scale like McDougall does. Lots of potatoes! Glad to have found your blog.
Barb - Thanks for this honest and thought-provoking piece. I'm so glad to hear you are experiencing a boost in happiness and energy! I look forward to hearing more. One thing I'm wondering about...has your take on salt changed at all? I like McDougall's perspective on that (especially since a sprinkle of salt helps my kids eat more steamed veggies), but I really don't know what is best.
Hi Patricia, I think the advice of less than 1 mg per calorie is good. So if your calorie intake is 1500 per day, total salt intake should be 1500 mg or less. That makes it easy to read labels. check mg of sodium per serving and check calories per serving. make sure mg of sodium is less than calories. easy! I don't add salt to my food because I have learned to enjoy the taste without it--and I thank Fuhrman for that. But as far as health goes, I think 1 mg per calorie is okay. I think McDougall's advice is reasonable. He is not promoting a high-salt diet by any means. Of course, I'm no expert--they are the experts!
Barb
I totally agree with you. I also am going to the McDougall diet because of almost all the exact things you mentioned. I bought his books back in the 90's, but was reluctant to go on the diet because he limits your fruit intake to only three a day. So when Dr. Fuhrman said to eat at least four servings a day, I went overboard and OD'd on way too much fruit.
Thanks for your candidness.
This quote from Dr. Fuhrman has me curious:
"The scientific literature corroborates my clinical experience over the last 16 years caring for thousands of patients with obesity, diabetes and heart disease, and provides evidence to show that for every calorie removed from the diet from rice, potato, bread or animal products and substituted with raw seeds and nuts you get many health benefits, such as:
* Lower blood sugar
* Lower cholesterol
* Lower triglycerides
* Better LDL/HDL ratio
* Better antioxidant status
* Better absorption of phytochemicals from vegetables
* Better diabetic control
* Lower weight
* More effective reversal of heart disease
* Prevention of cardiac arrhythmias in heart patients
* More weight loss, not weight gain
* Better nutritional diversity and satisfaction with less calories
* Increased protection against cancer
* Better muscle and bone mass with aging"
I read that to mean that a person should *always* choose nuts and never rice, potatoes or animal products. I guess the door is still wide open for non-rice intact grains, sweet potatoes and other starchy vegies.
I want to read more about how Dr. Fuhrman incorporates grains and other starches.
Great inquiry.... I'm enrolled in the quest for more knowledge.
wow! that is interesting Kristi! For *every* calorie? I think that's the part I disagree with. especially in regards to weight loss. and possibly cholesterol. peanut butter is high in saturated fat. I do think you can eat too many nuts of any kind. and nut butters are, in a way, a processed food. I suspect they are more easily converted to fat on the body than nuts you chew. the oils are separated out. Dr. F. says oils only take a few minutes to convert to fat on your body.
hi Anonymous. I also went overboard on fruit. and nuts. and dates. for a while. then had to scale it all back.
One thing that sticks for me is that Fuhrman has treated a lot of patients over the years and presumably his patients would be eating a lot of vegetables. If he sees better results with a higher fat diet then maybe there is something to it. Obviously it is not a scientific study, but he claims to have treated a lot of patients.
It may also be true that including whole grains and sweet potatoes is a very good idea too. Certainly your experience bears that out. In the one article of Fuhrman’s I included, he says to replace rice (I’m guessing that he means white rice and not brown rice), potatoes and bread with nuts. He doesn’t exclude oats, quinoa, whole wheat, black and brown rice, etc.
How does your most recent diet compare calorie-percentage-wise to JF’s recommendations in the Fuhrman's nutritarian food plate? He says a max of 20% of calories from grains. If you have 1500 calories/day then that would mean 300 calories from grains. 1/4 cup buckwheat is 150 calories and a medium potato is 150 calories. A large sweet potato is about 160 cal. A large ear of corn is 125 calories.
If you balance that out with 10% from nuts/seeds (150 calories), 1 cup beans (250-300 calories so 20%), 25% fruit (375 calories or 5 servings) and 25% veggies (all kinds, 375 calories) then you would be almost on plan (veggies should be min 30%). Are you thinking that you would drop to 75 calories from nuts/seeds and add 75 calories of grain?
Just a few thoughts that came to mind.
excellent questions, kristi, thanks for asking. today I probably had 4 servings of fruit. I only eat 1/2 cup of beans now. if by veggies you mean, non-starchy, I didn't come close to 25% of my calories. I just added it up in hronometer and it was about 155 calories. That's the kale and onions at lunch, then the big salad at dinner (lettuce, red bell pepper, cucumber). I probably had 1.5 cups of rice (1/2 cup at each meal), a baked sweet potato, 1/2 cup corn for the starches and grains. and 1/2 cup soy milk and edamame for the beans since I didn't have any cooked and I'm going out of town soon. so if you want to add the sweet potato and corn into veggies, then, yes, I had more than 25% veggies. I don't know, do you think he would consider this as following his diet? maybe. except I didn't have any nuts, just 1 T of flaxseed . A large part of what I did wrong was taking his recommendations to an extreme. That is my fault, not his. definitely!
Serotonin boost from starches. That's funny.
I think a mix of both schools of thought (Furhman and McDougall) is best. And, I might add, take a gander at 80-10-10 (Graham). Instead of a starch-based diet, it is fruit-based (based on our biological makeup). So, u can essentially do a mix of all 3:
*Fruit-filled breakfast (lots of watermelon or homemade OJ, fruit smoothies, green smoothies, date/applesauce, etc)
*lunch could be some type of grain, greens/sprouts, and beans (tortilla filled with hummus and sprouts and spinach, maybe a side salad or some carrots, perhaps adding a smidge of chia seeds)
*Dinner could be a veggie stirfry: -brown rice or quinoa
-broccoli, cauliflower, greens, waterchestnuts, carrots, etc
-topped with beans, hummus, or pea guacamole
-maybe a side salad
or
-another tortilla
-homemade bean burger (mash beans, rice, veggies together, maybe adding a bit of sweet potato to hold it together)with a tortilla or with baked plain "fries" and using hummus or pea guac as a dip
-Pizza wrap: tortilla filled with homemade tomato sauce, sprouts, greens (if desired, add beans or sprouted tofu if u can handle soy and toms ok)
*snacks could be hummus, fruit, a protein powder thing (like mix a scoop of pro powder into 1/2-1TB nut butter and spread it on a rice cake), fruit smoothie, green juice, coconut water mixed with pro powder and chia seeds
Like u, diet is a constant battle for me, as I am trying to heal my body naturally. I think eating as many fruits/veggies as possible is key to health, as well as nixing all animal products.
Im still on the fence about grains, as there are a lot of conflicting info about them...but definitely go Gluten-free for sure! I like Food for Life Brown Rice Tortillas (yeast-free too, which is an important thing to avoid), rice cakes (organic, whole grain), rice crackers, quinoa (too bad they dont make a yeast-free/GF bread or tortilla/pita with this grain/seed!).
*Nori sheets, romaine hearts, collards make good grain-free wraps, too..but sometimes u gotta have ur grain!
Beans are a difficult topic too, as these can be a digestion bomb! But soaking them in Kombu or sprouting them may help. the canned Eden brand is great (soaked in kombu and BPA-free)
Soy is another controversy...some say it is healthy and that the negative reports are over-rated...others say the negatives are true and can mess up your endocrine system and cause cancer. But, sprouted tofu might make these effects null and void?? Who knows. Whats ur take?
Not sure about potatoes and sweet potatoes. Those never digested well for me and IDK why exactly
I am a believer in food combining principles, as this definitely has helped many with digestion and health issues (fruit alone, careful with protein and carbs, etc)
Also, low fat is def the way to go. 15% should be max and the healthiest nations eat less than that. Protein is debatable...some say go no higher than 10%, others say as high as 30%. I guess it should be similar to the fat range of 10-15%, as to not stress the kidneys
So, the more raw and whole, the better. The more fruit/veg, the better. GF and DF and no animal products. garnish with beans. add small amounts of avo/chia/nuts/seeds (no more than 10% fat). Maybe add a pro powder like Sun Warrior if u need to gain muscle and/or are athletic (dont go overboard, though!). Green juice and smoothies! Dont go nuts over grains, but use them to round out a meal.
Any thoughts on what I posted? This is after years of research. Right now, Im doing the 80-10-10 LFRV diet, but am getting a bit sick of fruit 24/7 lol.
so what has been ur daily diet lately?
Thank you, Barb and Holly, for your relentless curiosity and drive to know and understand more. Thank you for sharing this journey! I am eager to know more.
Barb it's so great to read your thoughts on this topic. I've always respected your posts on the Fuhrman forum and your blog.
I've wrestled with the same thoughts you so clearly expressed here.
I want my eating life to embrace all the wonderful foods nature provides - but am nervous about the sugar and salt. I have some brain retraining to do to give beans, potatoes, rice and tortillas a hug again. I want to, though.
Thanks so much for your honest reflection.
Barb, I've spent time on both boards and try to glean the best of both. I lean toward McDougalling because of the lower protein emphasis, lower fructose amounts, ability to enjoy a snack if I want, and greater emphasis on starch.
I value the Fuhrman plan that allows that oz. of nuts/seeds without feeling guilt, and his emphasis on greens built into daily meals.
I find the McDougall plan to be less expensive, allows me to eat out with others, and includes familiar foods.
thanks for your comments anonymous and anonymous. actually my protein intake hasn't gone down. potatoes have more protein per calorie than nuts. and I'm eating less fruit which has low protein. replacing some of my fruit with grains and starches increases my protein, as done reaplacing my nuts.
-barb
Barb, about the protein, (2nd anonymous) I'm referring to the emphasis on beans/quinoa, etc. on the Fuhrman plan verses potatoes and rice on McDougall.
For me, cutting protein is essential for a medical condition. Dr. McDougall seems to emphasize eating lower protein than dr. Fuhrman's plan suggests. At least, that's my take on it.
I see. do you notice an improvement in your condition with the lower protein? I get the impression from Fuhrman that plant protein doesn't have the typical kinds of problems that animal proteins cause, except high amounts of soy. Have you noticed a difference with animal vs plant protein?
Dear Barb: Glad to read your moratorium on whole grains (brown rice, quinoa, millet, amaranth, barley, oats, even whole wheat berries) is over. I never understood what was "bad" about whole grains. Have you considered the macrobiotic diet? A friend of mine has been on it for decades, with weight stable since high school, and has remained healthy. It's lo-fat, lo-salt, lo-sugar, lots of whole grains and veggies, with a bit of fish (only white, I believe), and sea vegetables. Check it out. Since I'm swimming in fruits (peaches are ripe just now, as are the Gravenstein apples and blackberries), I'm probably eating way too much fruit, but it's tooo delicious. Also, I do sneak in a little lo-fat Greek yogurt now and then. Glad to hear your energy is back!!! Yeah!
Mary, good to hear from you!! No I have not considered th macrobiotic diet. Have you? I'll check it out. It's peach season here too! I don't have my own trees but the farmer's market has great ones. we're getting apples and blackberries too. But wow, from your own garden--how awesome is that. I'd overeat them too! I make home-made soy yogurt and love it--totally understand the appeal of yogurt!
Barbara repeats a common misunderstanding of my husband’s work, which I would like to comment on.
Joel does not refer to his recommended diet-style as the Fuhrman diet or even the Eat To Live diet, because he has no one specific diet, but instead he provides general guidelines on how to devise the healthiest diet for your needs and differences. His term “nutritarian” or a “nutritarian diet” refers to a person who recognizes the quality of their food intake and particularly attention to achieve comprehensive micronutrient adequacy without excess calories, knowing that it is important to both prevent and treat health conditions and promote longevity. Therefore he promotes an adequate consumption of high micronutrient plant food to promote cellular efficiency, and maximize cellular repair, self-cleansing functions and protection against cancer. This program is unique in that way and I don’t know of any other program that pays attention to the effects micronutrient excellence has to remove food addiction and what Dr. Fuhrman calls “toxic hunger”.
Therefore it is a misnomer to say, “ I am combining a “Dr. Fuhrman diet” with the diet of so-and-so because Dr. Fuhrman offers a wide range of dietary possibilities. He adjusts his recommendation for world-class professional athletes, for diabetics who should not be eating much fruit or any white potatoes, for overweight people who need to watch nut intake and even for some who require small amounts of animal products in their diet to thrive. One thing he does not want to do is prescribe the exact same dietary macronutrient ratio for every person, for example, many individuals do not thrive on a diet with 10 percent of calories from fat or less. And, he allows people to adjust the starch vegetable portion to meet caloric requirements. So Barbara, I would expect my husband to say that you learned so much from him about the importance of his recommended “Super Foods” and their anti-cancer and longevity promoting effects, that you are still following his nutritarian diet-style, and that if you were one if his patients in his office he would have aided you to devise the best choices that suit your body best, but continue the framework of all the important lifespan enhancing principles you learned from him. So his disagreement with you is that he would say you are still following his nutritarian diet-style.
I'm glad you're feeling better, but I don't think there was ever a need to "come out of the closet", as I hope you never felt like you were in one. I wish you the very best and hope to see you again helping others in our forums.
Warmly,
Lisa Fuhrman
Hi Lisa,
Wow, did I cause a disturbance? I am definitely not trying to stir up the pot and if I did, I apologize. I will take your comments to heart. Thanks to you and Dr. Fuhrman for taking the time to share your thoughts.
-barb
Great Post
Wild4Stars
thanks!
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